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"The Country", Magazine 1876, Letters and Discussion about Deerhounds At The Alexandra Palace


http://www.irishwolfhoundtimes.com The Country Magazine




DEERHOUNDS AT ALEXANDER PALACE
(The Country Magazine, Chaworth-Musters on Deerhounds )

As a breeder and lover of deerhounds I was glad to see "Philocyon's" letter in your issue of Dec. 23 last, protesting against the highly coloured criticism of a dog called Young Torrum. A dog of his weight, over 1001b., ought to girth at chest 35in. As to his impurity, your correspondent is quite right when he asserts the Bussian cross on the dam's side Braie, but I cannot allow a similar assertion to be made as to his sire Old Torunn, and I may as well now give the meaning of the Gaelic word torunn, viz., a loud, murmuring noise ; secondly, thunder ; and I it was who changed the name from Torom to Torunn.

I have letters from Mr. Cameron, of Lochiel, who bred Torunn, and I copy from Oct. 4, 1870, in which he writes, "but the dog has a cross in him of some kind. No doubt of that, as every deerhound in existence has, I believe, but it is a remote one, and is probably through a lurcher, or cross betweon foxhound or colley dog and deerhound. The cross came through Gruamach's father, and yet he was the most perfect deerhound I over saw, looked much purer than your Torom, and was quite perfect." In another letter, dated Dec. 14, 1872, he says, "Gruamach, though a large dog, was one of the most perfect deerhounds I ever saw, and I believe he was pure." Now it will be seen from these extracts of Mr. Cameron's letters he only fancies there was a cross, but does not prove anything of the sort—in fact, he makes out the breed to be perfect. Again, your correspondent in concluding says, "He may (Young Torrum), like his sire, succeed at the stud when put to bitches, who can find the quality," etc. This is rather too much of a slur on such a beautiful and world-famed dog as Old Torunn, who never had but two pure-bred bitches sent to him, viz., Mr. Parke's (now mine) Brenda, who is the dam of more prize winners than any other deerhound bitch in the kingdom; and Mr. Spencer Lacy's Garry; and who won every prize before him, except when allowed to be beaten by a mongrel called Warrior at the Crystal Palace 1871, when the 1870 decision was completely reversed.

But let us not return to Young Torrum, but to Old Torunn, and seo how far his show career supports " Philocyon's" opinion. He appeared at Birmingham 1869, winning first prize, ditto 1870, and 1871 first and cup; Crystal Palace 1870, first and extra cup; Glasgow 1871, first and extra cup; Carlisle 1871, first prize; and judged by Messrs. Mallaby, Macdona, Lort, Handley, Peiree, and Walker, of Halifax. Surely after this career this dog should certainly be trumpeted forth as an old wonder.

I would, in conclusion, say that as long as such judging in the deerhound classes as at the late Alexandra Palace goes on, which I watched, we breeders of deerhounds are totally at a loss to know what it means. It seemed to me the judges picked out dogs they fancied, and did not judge by points at all; and they fancied the worst-footed animals in the show, beginning at Linda, bad forefeet, very straight in her stifles, but most beautiful-bodied bitch, Hylda II., down on near forefoot; and neither Linda nor Hylda is to be compared to that lovely bitch, Mr. Parke's Teeldar or Hylda, only very highly commended, and I am one who will always stick up for her, believing her to be simply perfect in all points; and after taking the cup for the best deerhound in the late Birmingham show, under Mr. Mallaby's judgment, and thereby beating her own brother, my beautiful Torunn the younger, I think I am fully justified in writing all I have done.

I subjoin Old Torunn'a pedigree and dimensions, and if anyone can furnish better, or as good, I would be glad to see the animal.

http://www.irishwolfhoundtimes.com The Country Magazine, Chaworth-Musters on Deerhounds


From nose to setting on of tail 53
Tail 26
Height at shoulder 31
Length of head 12 1/2
Circumference of bead 18
Round arm at elbow 9
Girth at chest 33 1/2
Girth at loin 24
Round thigh 18
Round lower thigh hock 7 1/2
Round knee 6 1/2
Weight 1201b.
The similar measurements of Mr. Field's celebrated deerhound only amounted to 229in.

H. Chaworth-Musters. Kirk Langley, Derby.

P.S.—Since writing the foregoing I have seen Mr. Graham's letter on the subject, and, perhaps, after reading my answer to "Philocyon," he may be induced to change his opinion.

Having had my attention called to a correspondent's letter in your journal, signed "Philocyon," I hasten to reply to his objections, which I propose to take à seriatim.

First: If " Philocyon" will again refer to his Stud Book he will see his error in dubbing Young Torrum's maternal ancestor as a Russian wolfhound; he will find he was a Russian deerhound.

Secondly: With regard, as "Philocyon" says, to the dog himself. He admits that he is a tall dog, good; in his opinion he has thick and extremely coarse limbs. Has he thicker or coarser limbs (which means, I presume, the same thing) than are proportionate to his immense height—31.in. standard measure? Had they been less so, would your correspondent not (in his hypercritical mood) have called him weedy? But in the opinion of many, maybe quite as well able to give an opinion, he is not thick or coarse limbed.

Thirdly: "Philocyon" takes exception to his feet. Had they been smaller would they have been proportionate? Is not " Philocyon" aware that deerhounds are required to be powerful swimmere as well as coursers? The minor objection —i.e., feet patched with white, the actual fact being some of the toes are white, not feet—is hardly worth remark, "Philocyon" not having, apparently, observed that the first-prize dog (Bovis) had white feet.

Fourthly : His depth of chest. For the appeasement of "Philocyon's" chafed spirit, I give his actual measurement of chest, with a tight tape, as 35in. full; he has, when in better condition, measured 37in.

Fifthly: His head. The actual measurement is 13in. Is it too large to be proportionate? Had it been an inch or so less, would not that have been an eyesore to his critic? It is powerful, but it is wanted to do powerful work.

"Philocyon" next dwells on the point of when side by side with other dogs, they are not brought side by side at a show, what are shows for?

"Philocyon" then goes on to speak about deerhounds requiring to have the formation of the greyhound, with greater bone, size, and strength; but our querulous friend wants a greater bone without being thicker.

I cannot close my letter without noticing " Philocyon's" surprise at his coming more into notice as he matures ; he is not singular in this respect; in common with his compatriots of good stamina

H. Chaworth-Musters. Kirk Langley, Derby.

Deerhounds At The Alexandra Palace. DEERHOUNDS AT THE ALEXANDRA PALACE
(Letter by Phllocyon . January 13 1876)

MY strictures on Young Torrum have called forth two defenders in Capt. Graham and "A Roving Scot." The former gentleman's opinion is entitled to great consideration, as he owned tiro dog some time ago, as he admits, and I will deal with his letter first. The case stands thus: Young Torrum was eulogised as the purest and finest deerhound ever exhibited in England. In answer to this I showed, in the first place, that he had a cross on his dam's side, and, as I believed, on his sire's also. Capt. Graham admits that the dog " is no purer bred than many others, and certainly looks far less so." He, however, goes on to say that the same objection applies to many of the best-known dogs of the day. Young Torrum may certainly be no worse than many of his neighbours, but that is quite a different thing from setting up a epocial claim as "the purest" of all. But there are many dogs whose pedigrees are far more free from stain than Young Torrum's, and I do not altogether agree with Capt. Graham in depreciating the purity of the modern deerhound. Whilst on this point I will notice "A Roving Scot's" letter where he begs me to understand that he considers the Russian cross "nicks" well with the deerhound. I admit that it is about the only cross that can be used, but it brings in many defects, and, after all, it is "a cross" and I may remind" A Roving Scoot " that if one man claims special purity for a dog, and I show a cross, it is no reply to say that the cross nicks well.

I then, in my former letter, charged Young Torrmn with having bad legs and broken-down feet, a lack of depth in the chest, a bad head and -ears, and with being stilty and " jumped up."

Now, what does his apologist, Capt. Graham, say to this ? And I may just remark that the admissions of one's opponent are to be construed most strongly against him.Well, Capt. Graham admits " that Torrnm's legs and feet are not perfect," and that "if the dog's feet and legs were quite as they should he he would stand almost an inch taller." I think these two admissions fully support my charge as to legs and feet. With regard to the chest, Capt. Graham says, "his girth is not excessive," and further on says "that with better legs and an inch more depth he would be as well made a dog as most." Capt. Graham thus admits that the dog is not so deep . as he should be, even as he is, but what on earth would he be if his feet were right and he stood an inch higher? I think the disproportion would be great indeed, and he would indeed deserve my epithet of "stilty." With regard to Young Torrum's head, Capt. Graham admits that "it is not a taking one," and also that his ears are inferior. Capt. Graham, after candidly admitting all the above points, then finds fault with me for not giving the dog credit for his good points, such as his length and size. Now, I do not think Young Torrum is partoiularly lengthy in reality, and, at all events, he would not be so in proportion to his height if he stood up an inch higher. As for size, which Capt. Graham cannot get away from, though he is too good a judge to be blind to the dog's many faults, I repeat that Torrum is really very little taller than many of his competitors, though he looks so; but, as to size, more anon. The point in Capt. Graham's letter which he -so feelingly mentions is the measurement of dogs. I have so long held the very same opinions that I am utterly incredulous when I am informed of a dog's measurements, especially his height, though I do not suspect the bona fides of my informant. There is but one way of measuring height, viz., by an upright standard with a cross piece brought fairly down on the shoulder blade, and even in this way owners, in their anxiety to make their dogs as tall as possible, often measure a little way up the neck. I always marvelled how men could make such mistakes as to height until a friend of mine, who had measured a dog at one of the principal shows to be 29in., told me that he shortly afterwards saw him measured by a dog fancier for his owner at 32in. high, and this dog was afterwards advertised and sold as such. In this case one end of the tape was placed on the floor, and the other drawn to the centre of the dog's shoulder on his back.

The owner of Young Torrum has furnished an example of this kind when he states his dog to be 31 Jin. high. I venture to assert that he is nothing of the kind, and I appeal to Capt. Graham as to whether he could make him so much when properly measured. A gentleman of my acquaintance, who was at Birmingham show in 1873, being struck with Young Torrum's apparent size, measured him accurately, and made him a shade over 30in.; and on measuring his opponents found there were three who measured 30 1/2 in. in height, viz., Mr. Addio's Arran, Mr. Hickman's Mornie, and Mr. Mustere's (Young) Torrunn, and three 30in. dogs, viz., Mr. Parkes's Bevis, Mr. Smith's Torrum and Boyal. These measurements were carefully taken, and as the taker did not take them with reference to any particular dog, they are at all events relatively correct, though I believe they are absolutely so.

Now, two or three of the above-mentioned dogs are animals of true deerhound make, and show the proper combination of strength and speed, whilst most, if not all, are incomparably superior to Young Torrum in everything except height. So that it comes to this—that a dog whose advocates rest his chief claim to consideration on his alleged size, is set up as the grandest deerhound over exhibited, solely because he is about a quarter of an inch taller than many other well-known dogs; this quarter of an inch overriding all other considerations of shape, make, quality, and points. Surely this is indeed the reductio ad absurdem of the argument for mere size.

Now, with regard to "A Roving Scot." In the first place I may say that I never charged him with writing up the dog, nor imputed any motives, nor intended to do so. In fact, when I wrote I did not know that he was the writer of the article. What I thought was, that the eulogy was written by some one who, seeing Young Torrum on his bench, with his legs and feet partially covered with straw, was taken by his apparent size, for I could not imagine how any man, who was a judge of any class of dogs, bestowing such laudations on Young Torrum if he examined him closely.

"A Roving Scot," by the way, cites Sir W. Scott's Maida as an example of the Russian wolfhound cross. Will he kindly point out where that information is to be found? Scrope says it was the bloodhound cross. Besides, Maida, though a celebrated dog from his associations, was not a perfect specimen of the deerhound, if we may judge by the painting at Abbotsford, as he had a white-blaze face, chest, and legs, like a St. Bernard, and would certainly not have been looked at in a show, like the celebrated Wyan-Vandyke mastiff.

When "A Roving Scot" asserts that Young Torrum's legs are straight and powerful, that he has sufficient depth of chest, and his head is good, I think it is quite sufficient to refer him to the first part of my letter and the admissions of Capt. Graham, and leave the public to judge how far he is justified in his assertions, and how far facts support his assumption of size, strength, speed, and endurance as attributes of Young Torrum.

As for size,there is no doubt that over-large show dogs would be too big for the majority of the so-called deer forests. Let "A Roving Scot " go on some of them in the western highlands, and then think how he would like to risk a big dog on the rocks and steep mountains. I know two first-prize winners that were parted with by their former owners, practical deerstalkers, because they were too big for their work. At the same time, I agree with Capt. Graham that, as a show dog, the largest should have the preference, if he has merit to support his size, because it is easy enough to breed dogs of the proper size for work even from big dogs, which are very exceptional, and unless big sires are encouraged the breed rapidly degenerates in size. But size in itself is no claim to consideration, but the contrary.

"A Roving Scot" says Young Torrum has powerful jaws. I accused him of bulging out at the jaws, that is, at the cheeks. I don't like " snipey "nosed ones any more than " A Roving Scot" does, but these noses often go with the jaws I mention. With reference to this, I may call attention to "Idstone's" remarks on the deerhound in his book, in which he mentioned, as one of the faults of the modern deerhound, "the heavy, and, as the ignorant imagine, necessarily strong jaw."

As to "A Roving Soot's" inquiry whether either Mr. Hodson or Mr. Handley have kept and used deerhounds on a deer forest, I may say the former has kept them, but whether he has used them I cannot say. But these were only two of the six judges I mentioned, and one of them at least—Mr. Lacy—is well known as a deerstalker and owner of a good breed of dogs, the same strain as the late Col. Campbell, of Monzie. But if "A Roving Scot" thinks he is right and all these six judges wrong, I have nothing to do but leave it to your readers to decide between them.

With regard to Capt. Graham's allusions to Old Torrum, I may say that I agree with him in the main, and I always considered Mr. Mallabey perfectly wrong in his estimate of this dog, and it was to protest against mere size overriding every other consideration that I wrote my letter.

"A Roving Scot" prophesies that Young Torrum will be heard of again. I venture to prophesy, on my part, that if he ever does attract favourable notice it will never be from a judge of the breed.

Phllocyon.

DEERHOUNDS AT THE ALEXANDRA PALACE
(Letter by G A Graham . January 13 1876)

Permit me a few words anent Mr. Musters' letter. Nothing that could be said would induce me to alter my opinion of Old Torrum as a deerhound. That he was a dog of extraordinary size, great frame, and imposing appearance, I willingly allow ; but when many of the necessary and important features were looked for, they were found to be very defective. The dog approximated more to the type of the old Irish wolfhound, and, as sech, was entitled to his meed of admiration. I by no means uphold Young Torrum as even approaching perfection—far from it ; but I believe him to be unequalled for size, power, and largeness of frame, and for these unusual features to be as worthy of attention as was his sire. The old dog's head was extremely coarse and heavy for a deerhound; the young dog's is narrower, but of equal length, and, consequently, more correct.

As to Old Torrum's beauty, that is a matter of taste; but those who approved of him most, and they were few, could hardly laud him on this score. I several times saw and carefully examined this dog before he passed into Mr. Musters' possession, and, with the exception of being a trifle less in height, the young dog is, in my opinion, superior to his sire, and I contend that he is entitled to at least as much consideration.

What grounds Mr. Musters has for calling Warrior a mongrel I know not. I have many times seen him, and, though considering him no more than an ordinary and rather undersized specimen of the large rough greyhound, I saw no reason to form so mean an opinion of him.

Now, a word as to the stain on Torrum's pedigree! I believe I am right in stating that he can claim the late Lord Breadalbane's King of the Forest as one of his ancestors. This dog (one of unusual size) was certainly cross-bred. I also have a communication from Mr. Cameron, of Lochiel (Torrum's breeder), in which I am informed that " Torrum's father was a magnificent dog, not so massive as his son, bnt more like a deerhound;" also that "Torrum was rejected because he was too big for work, and his head is too coarse to breed from;" that there certainly was a stain in his great grandfather; also that "the head and ears are points in which Torrum is very deficient;" lastly, that it is " doubtful if there are any deerhounds quite pure."

During the course of a conversation I had with Mr. Cameron's keeper, I was informed that Torrum was turned out of their kennel, as he was useless for work, owing to his clumsiness and weak legs.

I have now by me a copy of an extract from a letter to a friend, from Mr. Laverack, the celebrated setter breeder, in which he alludes to a deer or wolfhound he had seen in Dublin some years ago, and states that, though he had seen all the best kennels in Scotland—including the late Lord Breadalbane's, and particularly one hound called the King of the Forest (notorious for hie size) —none of them in any way came up to this dog. This proves that the King of the Forest was at any rate a dog of great size, and from him. doubtless, both Old and Young Torrum inherit their stature. I confess I am glad to see Mr. Musters puts a fair and reasonable height on his dog. I have often heard his dog (most erroneously) called 33 inches! At 31 inches he would be a good inch taller than almost any deerhound, and. few people realise properly how much difference a single inch makes in the apparent size of a dog of this or any other large breed.

In conclusion, I would wish to express my/ conviction that the cross with the Russian wolfhound (not deerhound) has in no way proved detrimental to the Highland breed, and has certainly imparted to it a degree of quality and a. certain bloodlike look that the breed was fast losing, to say nothing of the gain in the matter of symmetry that almost invariably accrues.

Mr. Musters is mistaken if he supposes his Brenda is free from this stain, if it can be considered one. Brenda's dam Hylda (dam of Moscow also) was by Bran (Field's), bred by Cole, of Windsor Park, out of a Bentick bitch. Bran's mother, Hilda (Cole's), was the granddaughter of a pure white Russian wolfhound that belonged to the late Prince Consort. She was a remarkably handsome and well-made bitch. of great size and power; but was white with a few brindle patches, and had rather a poor coat. I may mention here a fact curiously illustrative of "throwing back." A brindle grandson of this bitch (Hilda) got out of a brindle bitch two perfectly white puppies, which, however, eventually took after the Highland race in looks.

Rednock, Dursley. G. A. Graham.

----------------------- JAN 20 76 DEERHOUNDS AT THE ALEXANDRA PALACE
(Letter by A Roving Scot . January 20 1876)

I do not think the manager of The Country would employ any gentleman to report for that paper unless he was satisfied that the party so employed would do so honestly and to the best of his ability, and here permit me to say that I knew my marching orders too well to show a bias in favour of any gentleman's dog. What I wrote about Young Torrnm was nothing but what I believed to be true; and as others, since the report appeared in The Country, have borne me out, I think the readers of this paper will acquit me of any partiality. But, to make doubly sure, I went to London on Saturday for the express purpose of measuring Young Torrum. This Mr. Rotherham most kindly allowed me to do, and I subjoin such measurement at the end of this note. I beg now to call the attention ot your readers to the following paragraph in Mr. Chaworth Munsters's letter : " I would, in conclusion, say that, as long as such judging in the deerhound classes as at the late Alexandra Palace goes on, which I watched, we breeders of deerhounds are totally at a loss to know what it means." Such an expression of opinion, coming, from so good an authority, ought to carry the greatest weight with the Kennel Club. True, in the words of Punch, the judges took no more notice of Young Torrum than if he had been "an old tom cat;" and, in an excellent editorial review on the judges, we find the following in reference to the Dandie Dinmont terriers: "We (the judges) don't know, and we don't care, but we have peppered every type with very highly commendeds except one —the best— to show how independent we are, and how regardless of criticism." The above applies equally well to the deerhounds, as the best dog, Young Torrum, was passed over by the judges.

I have no less than a dozen letters in my possession, received since the show, all speaking in favour of this grand dog, and here let me give a short quotation from one of them: 'Young Torrum is the only dog by Old Torrum that has equalled his sire in size, and stands alone as the giant of his race." I could quote plenty of authorities who value this dog very highly, but I think I have said enough to clear myself of any partiality, and I am not unused to good deerhounds. When I saw Young Torrum on Saturday he was only recovering from a very severe cold, and I honestly state he is only a " bag of bones," a mere skeleton, hence the different measurements I here give would be far exceeded were the dog in anything like fair condition, but I have no doubt, as he is in very able hands, he will soon recruit. I may as well state that he is shedding his coat at the preeent time, which detracts much from his appearance.

Dimensions of Torrum

Inches.

From nose to tail 53
Tail 26
Height at shoulder 31
Length of head 12 1/2
Circumference of head 17 1/2
Round arm at elbow 9
Girthat chest 33 1/2
Girth at loin 24
Round thigh 7 1/2
Hound lower thigh hock 6 1/2
Round knee 6 1/2
From centre of eye to tip of nose 6 1/2
Round muzzle below eye 11 1/2
Round point of muzzle 8 1/2
It will be seen from the foregoing I have followed Mr. Chaworth Musters's plan; I believe this dog would, if in proper condition, weigh 1301b. I have now done what I considered my duty to the readers of The Country, and ehall take no further notice of any correspondence on this subject.

A Roving Scot

DEERHOUNDS AT THE ALEXANDRA PALACE
(Letter by G. A. Graham. January 20 1876)

It is not my intention to " argue the point." with Philocyon" I do not perceive that I made any "admissions." I merely gave certain opinions, and they can be taken for what they are worth. It was more with a view to evoke some explanation as to why, if Old Torrum were considered perfection, his son (and superior, in my estimation) should be looked upon as such an altogether inferior animal, than to defend Young Torrum, that I have troubled you with my letters. My letter had no reference whatever to "A Roving Scot's " letter in his praise, which I have not even seen. I beg to repeat my opinion that the dog would stand having another inch added to his height, and yet not be out of proportion, if his depth were increased the inch I required. I confess I do not see the " stiltiness" complained of. I can assert (from frequent measurements) that he is a dog of extraordinary length, being close on 7 feet from nose to end of tail. I now have a son of Young Torrnm's, that stands qnite 1 1/2 in. taller than his sire, and, though measuring only the same in length, he does not strike one as being short in make. I never took Young Torrum's height; he was sold to me as standing 32in. or 33in., but he certainly was considerably under that. I know all the dogs mentioned by " Philocyon," and consider them to be 30in. dogs only ; and I feel pretty sure that the difference between them and Young Torrum exceeds considerably the 1/2 in. allowed by "Philocyon's" friend. As I have no particular interest in continuing this correspondence, I shall not trouble you again in the matter ; at the same time, if anyone so wishes, I shall be happy to communicate with him privately on the subject.

Rednock, Dursley. G. A. Graham.

As Capt. Graham abuses Old Torunn, I would ask him to name a deerhound that has proved himself more successful at the stud in getting prize v. inners; and none of hie stock come up to his height of thirty-one inches at the shoulder, which is a good proof of pure blood, for were he a cross-bred dog he would get bigger stock than himself. My grounds for calling Warrior a mongTol are precisely the same as Mr. Graham's, or, better still, a mixture of snap and deerhound —ergo, mongrel. Next, as to the late Marquis Breadalbano s King of the Forest. What reason Mr. Graham has for saying he was certainly cross-bred I am at a loss to understand; it must be from supposition only and from mere hearsay, as I am sure he never eaw King of tbe Forest. Mr. Cameron says he never heard of him, and there is no proof whatever that Old Torunn claims him as an ancestor. In the extracts that Mr. Graham has taken from Mr. Cameron's letter (copy of which I have before me, taken by my own hand), it would have been much fairer had the proper rendering been given, and not words put in and taken out to suit the preeent occasion of crabbing the breed, which is the purest of all, combining as it does the Monzies, Glengarry, Lochiel, and Blackmount, "that there certainly was, &c," should be, "there is a stain in his great grandfather, whom I never eaw;" lastly, that it is "doubtful, &c," "I doubt if any deerhounds, except perhaps Mr. Campbell's of Monzies, are quite pure." As to his clumsiness and weak legs, I never had a deerhound that jumped higher or with more grace than Old Torunn. An anecdote was told of him by hie keeper, whom Mr. Graham quotes: The dog got loose, and went by himself and hunted a stag down, which he killed. I flatter myself I know as much as most people about the deerhound breed, and have always known that Mr. Field'e Bran and Mr. Graham's Keildar (own brothers) were crossbred with the Russian greyhound, consequently Brenda has a taint of the same cross ; but I hope, with judicious breeding, I may breed that objectionable Eussian strain out, and I trust to Brenda to throw to the Monzie blood as she hitherto has done, and I am convinced that the true Scotch deerhound blood came with Old Torunn's ancestry. H. Chawobth-Musters. Kirk Langley, near Derby. --- DEERHOUNDS AT ALEXANDER PALACE
(Letter by Henry P. Parkes)

I Have read with the very greatest interest the late correspondence in your paper concerning deerhounds. I quite agree with one of your contributors that we deerhound breeders are entirely at sea as to what points we are to endeavour to attain, the judging at the various shows being so different. Would it not be well if several of the judges were to have a consultation and try to agree as to a scale of perfection of points, publish the same through yours or any other well known paper, and so relieve us of our difficulty? I will relate one instance to prove what I mean.

My bitch Teeldor won first prize at Birmingham in 1874 ; in 1875 she took the champion prize and Elkington's extra cup, as being the best deerhound in the show, on both occasions beating Lord St. Leonards' Hylda. In the same month, shown at the Alexandra Palace, she merely gets very highly commended, being beaten by the aforesaid Hylda. I mention this case because I see it has been alluded to in the correspondence. Before I leave the subject of judging, I must say that there is no show at which I have exhibited where the judging is so uniform as that of Birmingham; the judges there evidently have a certain scale by which they form an opinion, and by that scale they stand on all occasions. As to the dogs mentioned, viz., Musters' Torunn and Young Torrum, I have used the former with great advantage, but as to the other, I quite agree with the opinions expressed by " Philocyon." In conclusion, I should esteem it a favour if " Philocyon" would communicate with me direct, and allow me to give him the opportunity of criticising my dogs. My object being to breed them as perfect as possible, I am desirous of having all their weak points shown up, and feel sure his knowledge on the subjeot will be of great service to me. I shall also be pleased if Mr. G. T. Bartram will send me the dimensions, colour, quality of coat, etc, of the dog he names, as I am anxious to find a really good stud dog.

Henry P. Parkes

DEERHOUNDS AT ALEXANDER PALACE
(Letter by Philocyon)

Permit me a few final words of reply to your correspondents on this subject,-and then I, too, will retire from the scene.

In his last letter, " A Roving Scot," not satisfied with my statement that I had never imputed any motives, reiterates his voluntary disclaimers of writing up any man's dog through partiality, forgetful of the maxim, Qui s'excuse s'accuse, and also of the circumstance that, when a man is always protesting his innocence of self-raised charges, people cannot help thinking of the lines in "Hamlet," "Methinks the lady doth protest too much."

As to the other portion of " A Roving Scot's" letter, where he states that he has received a dozen letters in praise of Young Torrum, I would ask him how far he would think it a good argument if I stated that I had received a hundred letters running down the dog, unless I could show that they were from persons whose opinions were entitled to respect, or who could justify their assertions by argument. He would laugh at me.

But "A Roving Scot's" trump card is reserved for the last. He hurries up to London, and measures Young Torrum, and then, curiously enough, just like Mr. Musters in the care of the sire, produces them as a triumphant refutation of all detractors. This is certainly a way of simplifying the judging of deerhounds, and Mr. Musters is entitled to credit for making it still more simple, for, after adding up his dog's measurements to a total of 246 inohes, he points to them with pride and says : " The similar measurements of Mr. Field's celebrated deerhound Bran only amounted to 229 inches ; " so that the dog whose total of measurements " lumped ' together is greatest is, it is to be inferred, the best dog in Mr. Mnsters's opinion. But the merest tyro would admit that, even granting size is everything, this remarkable test of comparing the sum total of measurements is ridiculous, as it gives no information as to symmetry and proportion of the various parts, and in fact dispenses with them.

With advocates of mere size then, it appears that the judging of the future will be capable of mathematical demonstration, and the only requisites in a judge will be an impartial manipulation of the standard, the tape, and the scales, and the ability to add up a total of measurements. Then, indeed, the disappointed exhibitor will be a thing of the past, as no one can question the inexorable logic of figures.

Whilst on the subject of measurements, I may notioe that Capt. Graham doubts whether I was right in asserting that, after all, Young Torrum is only about 1/4 in. taller than certain other dogs. But he admits he never measured Young Torrum, so that he only speaks from appearances, which it what I complained of at first; that, though people assume that this dog is so much bigger than others, they would, to their surprise, find they were deceived if they would accurately compare them.

It is curious to see how Young Torrum's measurements vary, and how fully I was justified in being incredulous. He was sold to Capt. Graham as 32in. or 33in. high, and not more than a week he was described by his owner as 31iin. standard measure, and as 13in. in the head, and 37in. in girth when in condition, but then 35in. "A Roving Scot" then comes to London, and then the above measurements come down respectively to 31in., 12 1/2., and 33 1/2. Now, after this series of reductions, it is possible that in other hands he might be found to be nearly half-an-inch still less, as I described him.

Lastly, a word with Mr. Musters. I fully agree with him that the Monzie strain was, so far as appears, pure; and it is evident Mr. Cameron thought so, though he was compelled to admit what no one who looked at Torunn, and knew anything of the deerhound, could deny that he had a cross in him. I have always understood that the cross was in the maternal line, and came from King of the Forest. Mr. Musters says that there is no proof that the latter was one of his dog's ancestors. How was it then that he is so described in "The Kennel Club Stud Book," in the pedigree supplied by Mr. Musters? and how is it that in one of his advertisements of Old Torunn, as a stud dog, the gentleman stated him to be descended from King of the Forest, and that the latter was 3Cin.high (!)? Surely he would hardly make these statements without some proof.

Again, Mr. Musters is hardly consistent. In his first letter he describes his Brenda as one of the two "pure" bitches sent to Torunn; and in his last one he states that he knew she had a cross, but trusts by judicious breeding to get rid of it. This is also rather hard on the bitch, for, though Torunn had ample opportunity given him, all the dogs of any account by him are, I believe, out of this one bitch, in which state of things the reasonable inference is that they owe their excellence chiefly to the dam.

I have now done with the subject, which I have taken up from a love of, and some experience in, the breed. I am sorry to have to find fault with any man's dog, but the blame, if any, should rest on those who challenged criticism by an eulogy, which even Capt. Graham describes as "injudicious," and Mr. Musters as "highly coloured," and which, to use the words of Macaulay, "by seeking to enshrine this carrion has forced us to gibbet him," by showing that he is bad in head, ears, coat, feet, and legs; and that even in mere size, which his friends set up as the touchstone of excellence, his pretensions have been greatly exaggerated, and crumble to pieces at each successive touch.

Philocyon.

HEIGHT OF DEERHOUNDS.
(Letter from G. T. Bartram )

I observed in the letter written by Capt. Graham in The Country, Jan. 13, the following: "At 31in. he (Old Torrum) would be a good inch taller than almost any deerhound." Now, it just happens that I know a deerhound of as pure a breed as the dogs about which there has been so much written of late, that stands 31in. at shoulder, and measured whilst standing on level boards, and taken with a standard, not a tape; and he measures 34 1/2in. round chest, full measure, with a very tight tape; he is also a very long dog, and is well proportioned, and I consider a grand dog, about two years old. On reading Capt. Graham's letter, it occurred to me that it was just possible that, in this particular, it might convey an erroneous impression to those not conversant with deerhound measurement; and that is why I ventured to send measurement of this dog. He is now only in moderate condition, as he is in training by the park keeper to the Marquis of Bristol, and is already an excellent dog at his work. I mention this because it has been suggested by writers on this breed that a large dog is only fit for the show bench to win prizes, and do not answer the real end for which deeerhounds are bred. Mr. Chaworth Musters mentions iu his letter, as something remarkable, that Old Torrum once broke away from his kennel, and went and pulled down a deer single-handed.

I can say of the dog I give measurement of that he has taken—fairly taken—several bucks single-handed. To show his courage, I may be permitted to say that a short time since he was "laid on " a dry doe, and his speed being too much for her, she took to the canal and made for the island in the middle of it. The dog proved to be the better swimmer of the two. Just before she reached the land he collared her, and the dog eventually got her to the land, and, unassisted, dragged her several yards into the island, and killed her in less than two minutes. The cracking of her jaw bones bore evidence to his powerful muscular jaws.

I hope some day to place him beside some of the big dogs of the present day, as it is my impression that he is a very grand dog (and I am not unaccustomed to deerhounds); still, I long to see him placed by the side of some of the crack winners, as I believe that the only way to correctly form a fair estimate of a dog's capacities is to have them so placed that simultaneous observations can be taken.

The sister to this dog I sold last year for 25 guineas. If thought desirable, I could give full measurement of him and pedigree. He is not for sale.

G. T. Bartram.

DEERHOUNDS AT ALEXANDER PALACE
(Letter by H. Chaworth-Musters. February 3rd 1876)

In answer to "Philocyon's" last, I would remind him I do not triumph simply over the measurements of Old Torunn, but I do point with pride to the pedigree with the dimensions that I gave in The Country of January 6, and I would add that, when I was asked to furnish the pedigree for the Kennel Club Stud Book, I did it to the best of my ability at that time, but have since found out the error, and so have corrected it. With regard to Brenda and Mr. Lacy's Garry, when I used the term pure bred I meant an animal can have the appearance of being pure bred and yet have a remote cross, which I believe every breed of dogs has. In conclusion, I hope I shall not be considered as one of the friends or enemies of Young Torrum, as I have carefully avoided writing anything about him, and simply went into this correspondence in defence of the Old Torunn

H. Chaworth-Musters.

DEERHOUNDS AT ALEXANDER PALACE
(Letter by Philocyon February 3 1876)

Although I have done with further controversy respecting Young Torrnm, I should be glad if you would permit me, through your columns, to ask Mr. Bartram whether the bucks killed by the dog he mentions were killed in a Scotch deer forest, because, when I stated what I did respecting certain dogs being too large for work, I, of course, meant for work in the mountains and rugged deer haunts of their native country, which is quite a different thing to the level ground of an English deer park.

If the dog in question is one named Hector, by Lord Bristol's Giaour, I know him; and, whilst admitting that he is an exceedingly large and powerful dog, I have a very decided opinion as to his qualifications as a deerhound.

Philocyon

2. HEIGHT OF DEERHOUNDS
(Letter from G. T. Bartram)

. I observed in the letter written by Capt. Graham in The Country, Jan. 13, the following: "At 31in. he (Old Torrum) would be a good inch taller than almost any deerhound." Now, it just happens that I know a deerhound of as pure a breed as the dogs about which there has been so much written of late, that stands 31in. at shoulder, and measured whilst standing on level boards, and taken with a standard, not a tape; and he measures 34 1/2 in. round chest, full measure, with a very tight tape; he is also a very long dog, and is well proportioned, and I consider a grand dog, about two ????? old. On reading Capt. Graham's letter, it occurred to me that it was just possible that, in this particular, it might convey an erroneous impression to those not conversant with deerhound measurement; and that is why I ventured to send measurement of this dog. Ho is now only in moderate condition, as he is in training by the park keeper to the Marquis of Bristol, and is already an excellent dog at his work. I mention this because it has been suggested by writers on this breed that a large dog is only fit for the show bench to win prizes, and do not answer the real end for which deeerhounds are bred. Mr. Chaworth Musters mentions iu his letter, as something remarkable, that Old Torrum once broke away from his kennel, and went and pulled down a deer single-handed.

I can say of the dog I give measurement of that he has taken—fairly taken—several bucks single-handed. To show his courage, I may be permitted to say that a short time since he was "laid on " a dry doe, and his speed being too much for her, she took to the canal and made for the island in the middle of it. The dog proved to be the better swimmer of the two. Just before she reached the land he collared her, and the dog eventually got her to the land, and, unassisted, dragged her several yards into the island, and killed her in less than two minutes. The cracking of her jaw bones bore evidence to his powerful muscular jaws.

I hope some day to place him beside some of the big dogs of the present day, as it is my impression that he is a very grand dog (and I am not unaccustomed to deerhounds); still, I long to see him placed by tho side of some of the crack winners, as I believe that the only way to correctly form a fair estimate of a dog's capacities is to have them so placed that simultaneous observations can be taken.

The sister to this dog I sold last year for 25 guineas. If thought desirable, I could give full measurement of him and pedigree. He is not for sale.

G. T. Bartram.

3. HEIGHT OF DEERHOUNDS (Continued)
(Letter from Philocyon)

. As I imagined, the bucks killed by Mr. Bartram' s dog were run down in an English park. This dog may have all the speed, pluck, and endurance, attributed to him, but on the Scotch mountains he would be far more likely to kill himself than the stag.

. My "position," therefore, remains unaffected by this instance, and you will perhaps allow me to restate it, so as to avoid misconception. It is this:

. 1. That our largest show dogs would be too big for actual work.

. 2. That, nevertheless, ceteris paribus, I would give the preference to the larger dog.

. 3. That to assert a dog to be the finest for the Bingle reason that he is the biggest, is, therefore, to say that he is the best deerhound, because he ¡? the most unfit for his work.

. As to settling the points of deerhounds, there is ne doubt there is something to be done in that direction, as those in the dogs of the British Islands have been servilely copied verbatim from the description of Mc'Neil of his brother's own dogs, who thus set up their accidental qualities as points. Whilst on this point, I may say that sufficient importance is not attached to colour. I am convinced that the true colour of the Scotch deerhound is a dark one, viz., iron-grey, grizzle, blue, or brindled, so that they may be unseen by the deer, their colour closely resembling the dark grey rocks and heather, whereas a fawn dog would be visible for a mile or so, and I have known of instances where suoh dogs had to be covered with a dark cloth to hide their colour when stalking. However, owing to crosses, the fawn colour occurs in most litters, and can now be hardly eradicated; but I believe that their colour was originally in all cases adapted, either by nature or selection, to their natural work, just as the Enssian wolfhound is mostly white, so as to be less conspicuous on the snow.

. As to publishing my name, as Mr. Bartram suggest, I must decline to do so, for my own reasons; but I may state that I have kept deerhounds for many years, and flatter myself I know as much as most. I must likewise decline the invitation to enter into details as to my "decided opinion " as to Hector, on the ground that I have no wish to disparage any gentleman's dog, unless public criticism be provoked by his being set up as a standard of excellence to what I should consider the prejudioe of the breed.

. Philocyon

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